[13:09] <BenjamP_> topic: shadow dom
[13:09] <adrianba> scribe: BenjamP 
[13:09] <sicking> rniwa: hey, sorry i didn't make it down today
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[13:10] <sicking> something came up
[13:10] <BenjamP_> dglazkov: let's spend time on imperative api
[13:10]  * rniwa sicking: we're talking about imperative API for insertion points
[13:10] <sicking> rniwa: imperative API ++
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[13:11] <dglazkov> https://gist.github.com/dglazkov/ce96f673b0b2ce7b8c55
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[13:14] <BenjamP_> the following is based on the doc linked above- Distribution Callback section.
[13:14] <BenjamP_> dglazkov: we don't know when to run the callback
[13:14]  * Yves bugzilla is up, rejoice!
[13:15] <BenjamP_> ... this has to do with how the box trees compose. Previously, we don't have to compute style until later, we can defer it. But problem is we have to run it the callback when you query the property.
[13:16] <BenjamP_> rniwa: I think it's worse
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[13:17] <BenjamP_> dglazkov: we have an array or add/remove methods. The array can be the filter. The problem is the author has to implement the distribution algorithm by hand. <details> has to set a mutation observer.
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[13:18] <BenjamP_> ... another (bad) idea is selector-based routing. Insert children based on selector
[13:18] <dglazkov> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18429#c4
[13:19] <BenjamP_> ,,, this bug shows combination of passive array and selector-based rounting
[13:19] <BenjamP_> ... so 4 total ideas here. Looking for thoughts
[13:19] <BenjamP_> rniwa: let's have a list of candidates and notify author when it changes.
[13:20] <BenjamP_> dglazkov: we could get stuck in 2-resolution loop
[13:22] <BenjamP_> rniwa: not necessarily. Distribution doesn't need to be synchronous. We could instead compose at the end and notify all. It's okay because we won't paint during the micro-task
[13:23] <BenjamP_> dglaskov: we don't want it to return 0 because it hasn't rendered. [in steps], what is offset top? Would be zero. This gives ability to reason about what's happening when things are added to the DOM, and you'll see them later.
[13:24] <BenjamP_> ... author won't know if it has run or not
[13:24] <BenjamP_> rniwa: similar to custom elements unresolved state
[13:24] <BenjamP_> ...don't want to expose timing in engine. Synchronous costs perf, async we'll have times when things aren't up to date
[13:25] <BenjamP_> dglaskov: this doesn't matter for routing
[13:25] <BenjamP_> ... conceptual model is css
[13:26] <BenjamP_> ... run it at the end of micro-task. I don't think that's unreasonable. But let's make sure we not confusing users mental model
[13:26] <BenjamP_> rniwa: selector-based routing has an expensive query, doesn't address random element use case
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[13:27] <BenjamP_> dglaskov: random is solved by selectors. When you create a router you define random
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[13:28] <BenjamP_> rniwa: you have to listen to mutations of your children
[13:28] <BenjamP_> dglaskov: no you don't
[13:29] <BenjamP_> rniwa: inserting elements should not break the selection
[13:29] <BenjamP_> dglaskov: valid point
[13:30] <BenjamP_> ... you'll sometime have ocasional inconsistency with imperative. That's okay.
[13:30] <BenjamP_> ... style resolution after callback?
[13:31] <BenjamP_> ... you could trigger it, but it doesn't typically need to run before callback
[13:31] <BenjamP_> rniwa: there are times you want to stay in sync and have them happen at the same time
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[13:33] <BenjamP_> dglaskov: insertion point needs an onDistrobution event
[13:34] <BenjamP_> rniwa: I agree it's weird to get wrong offsetTop, but our options are limited
[13:35] <BenjamP_> hayato: it's a tough issue
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[13:35] <BenjamP_> dglaskov: if you choose imperative, it may be difficult, but that's ok
[13:35] <BenjamP_> ... not sure if this is a problem in real life
[13:36] <BenjamP_> ArtB: something about potatoes
[13:36]  * Yves post-prandial silence
[13:36] <krisk> +Bacon please
[13:37] <ArtB> s/something about potatoes/carbos for lunch syndrome/
[13:37] <BenjamP_> topic: imports
[13:37] <dglazkov> https://gist.github.com/omo/9986103
[13:37] <BenjamP_> dglaskov: let's talk about blocking rendering
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[13:38] <ArtB> https://gist.github.com/omo/9986103 -> HTML Imports: Discussion over Async/Progressive Loading
[13:38] <BenjamP_> ... imports are modeled after stylesheets
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[13:39] <BenjamP_> ... trying to enable asynchronous loading, but sometimes we have to block
[13:40] <BenjamP_> ... if you have a script block in you doc, your loading imports will be sync with script.
[13:41] <BenjamP_> ... without <script> it will load in parallel, and will then block on paint
[13:41] <BenjamP_> Alex: this is not a rule
[13:41] <BenjamP_> dglaskov: right, but everyone does this
[13:41] <slightlyoff> BenjamP_: s/dglaskov/dglazkov/
[13:42] <BenjamP_> dglazkov: *pounds fist*
[13:42]  * ArtB t-shirt: The Web Will be Aysnc or Dead!
[13:43] <BenjamP_> dglazkov: async loading makes other elements change. We've only had sync loading until now, so we didn't see this
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[13:44] <BenjamP_> ... example: twitter doesn't want to block. So we invented async
[13:44] <BenjamP_> ... still some disagree about default sync/async
[13:45] <BenjamP_> Alex: speaking for pro-async. Agree that there are 2 different types of users- own the whole page or don't
[13:45] <BenjamP_> ... even for not-own-whole-page: makes sense to enable doc fade-in. What does it take to achieve? With sync/async: you have little control so you write your own staging code. Works around sync/async order
[13:46] <BenjamP_> rniwa: what are you ordering?
[13:47] <BenjamP_> Alex: if building an app: need to pull in code, elements, etc, have an early moment when I want to control (inline script), then pull in dependencies (async). Should we paint early while it's loading, and then paint again when all is available?
[13:48] <BenjamP_> ... if you're small part of the doc, you want to be able to say when you're ready and provide a placeholder
[13:48] <BenjamP_> rniwa: 3 state: unresolved, resolved, final
[13:48] <BenjamP_> ... which part are you talking about?
[13:48] <BenjamP_> Alex: they're all related
[13:49] <BenjamP_> ... blocking causes you to have to choose what you are targeting
[13:50] <slightlyoff> e.g., how would you reason about a hierarchy of things that all need resolution? As Jake Archibald phrases it, the "deeply resolved question"
[13:51] <BenjamP_> dglazkov: example- if I'm a framework, you have to load basic concepts quickly and do first paint (loading screen?). Then do more things because I've notified the users I'm getting ready. With HTML imports you have 1 sync import that does the quick first paint.
[13:51] <BenjamP_> ... I want to allow developers to draw a line and say "i want to paint here". Everyone has a 2 phase approach
[13:51] <BenjamP_> rniwa: this isn't unique to imports
[13:51] <slightlyoff> one way to think about this is trying to provide explicit API for defining resolution
[13:52] <BenjamP_> dglazkov: the problem is that they have to fall off the html train right away
[13:52] <BenjamP_> ... let's think abou this. we won' t solve it here
[13:53] <BenjamP_> Alex: we're missing a primitve, We want to define resolution. sync/async allow us to create 2 moments- now and later. You're now missing the ability to describe what happens when you get to the resolution
[13:53] <BenjamP_> rniwa: waiting is a special case; normal state is the final state.
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[13:54] <BenjamP_> Alex: there is a final moment that we should be able to reason about in the code. We don't have resolved/unresolved except for custom elements.
[13:54] <BenjamP_> ... we don't have a way to talk about dependencies
[13:55] <BenjamP_> rniwa: if you implement a custom image element, the browser can't reason about when it's ready
[13:55] <BenjamP_> ... maybe we should load a pseudo element?
[13:55] <BenjamP_> dglazkov: I'm fine letting developers solve this first and learn from it
[13:56] <BenjamP_> Alex: decision at first paint needs developer control. Should be able to delay paint until dev is ready
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[13:57] <dglazkov> esprehn!!!
[13:57]  * Yves zakim, code?
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[13:57]  * Yves zakim, this is webapps
[13:57]  * Zakim ok, Yves; that matches IA_WebApps()12:00PM
[13:57] <esprehn> dglazkov: :)
[13:57]  * Yves zakim, who is here?
[13:57]  * Zakim sees on the phone: anssik, [Paypal]
[13:57]  * Zakim sees on irc: esprehn, lmcliste_, KenjiBX, jinsong, alia, sicking, trackbot, xiaoqian, krisk, aizu, BenjamP_, Yves, shepazu, MikeSmith, ed, Hixie, logbot, schuki, heycam|away,
[13:57]  * Zakim ... gsnedders, decadance, jgraham, tzik, gavin, pdr, Domenic_, falken, hober, tyoshino, krit, cabanier__, dglazkov, dcooney, jsbell, scheib__, timeless_, cwilso, dfreedm_,
[13:57]  * Zakim ... slightlyoff, morrita, tobie__, krijnhoetmer, paul___irish, kochi, hayato, astearns, stryx`_, anssik, ArtB, john_hazen, adrianba, dksmith, opoto, jungkees, Travis, tantek,
[13:57]  * Zakim ... jsbell_
[13:58]  * Yves zakim, code?
[13:58]  * Zakim doesn't yet know the conference codea[13:58] <ArtB> +1.617.761.6200 ; PIN = 9274#
[13:58] <slightlyoff> scribenick slightlyoff
[13:58] <BenjamP_> rrsagent,generate minutes
[13:59] <slightlyoff> dglazkov: I forgot something about imports...will need to bring it up on the list
[14:00]  * adrianba did we lose rrsagent?
[14:00] <slightlyoff> (discussion about next topic, perhaps inheritance)